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Post by ironman on Apr 23, 2005 18:28:32 GMT 1
Top brass cleared over Iraq abuse  The images shocked the world Former commander of US troops in Iraq Lt Gen Ricardo Sanchez has been cleared over abuses at Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq. A new inquiry found no evidence of wrongdoing by Gen Sanchez and three of his top aides, US officials say. The US Army inspector general's report says only Brig Gen Janis Karpinski, commander at the jail, has been found guilty and reprimanded over the abuse. Pictures of Iraqi inmates abused by US soldiers caused an outcry last year. Five US soldiers have been convicted. The Pentagon has held nine major inquiries into the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, with two more to come.
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Post by ironman on Apr 23, 2005 18:29:39 GMT 1
aint that typical, its always the highest ranking people that get away with the most dirty shit..
iv always been told that you are responsible for every man/woman under you....
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Post by flying on May 5, 2005 0:09:34 GMT 1
aint that typical, its always the highest ranking people that get away with the most dirty shit.. iv always been told that you are responsible for every man/woman under you.... Quite right, Iron, that's what I've been told in the Air Force too: you are responsible for any sh*t done by the guys under your control. Not that I had a lot of people under me, being a Corporal, but seniority did count as a rank, and on an 8-hour graveyards shift in the underground (when all the sargeants were fast assleep), a lot of sh*t could happen if you didn't keep an eye on the rookies manning the teletypes. And it was all my responsibility, can you imagine that?! In the final 6 months of my 3-year commission, in the night shifts that I was on duty, all comm traffic directed at the Cinciberlant ComCen was my responsibility, hehehe... Good thing I kept those rookies on a tight leash! Back on topic, in the US this appears to be in reverse: the lower ranks are to blame for what the higher ranks authorize, lol! |
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Post by ironman on May 5, 2005 0:36:45 GMT 1
yeah.. and this woman that is in all this pictures will go to jail (probably take the fall for it all) for a long time.. and now already her defence is saying: she is a national gaurd reserve (sunday soldier lol) and she has a low iq and that she was a troubled kid and stuff... now one thinks then comes to mind.. these are the same people that gaurded them irakies and then this stuff got outta hand and NO ONE! saw this comming.... Wich emidiatly reacts a other thoughed in me brain, if indeed this soldier has a low iq and is a troubled kid (...ok....)... and IF indeed this colonel or general didnt know or see all this.. then ...ermmmm...ermmm.. do these clowns have weapons..........  ...... makes you kinda think huh.... |
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Post by Ricardus on May 5, 2005 9:17:17 GMT 1
Like I said, the real criminals here are Bush and Blair. Without their decision people wouldn't be in this position. I find it amusing that the Americans - on the one hand - claim that their armed forces are 'noble' and 'heroic' yet - on the other hand - that they are stacked to the gunwales with witless cretins.
Ricardus
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Post by Zecristo on May 5, 2005 15:47:26 GMT 1
The visible culprits are the politicians but there are others lurking in the shadow, the money lords...
The witless cretins aren't avoidable. They are the mass of human population. And that seems to be particularly true of the US where people with medium IQ's appear to be rare. They´re either stupid or geniuses. Its a country of extremes in many respects...
Besides "witless cretins" are unpriceable goods when the time comes to put the blame for something on someone. They're the most perfect excuse and the most perfect scape goats(http://www.angelfire.com/ar/awwcr/rings.html).
Of course, a more awaken person can always wonder wtf is a cretin doing on the military or on the police, but I think venting that doubt out wouldn't achieve much positive result...
Most probably it would get you into trouble...
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Post by flying on May 5, 2005 16:47:31 GMT 1
[...] Of course, a more awaken person can always wonder wtf is a cretin doing on the military or on the police, but I think venting that doubt out wouldn't achieve much positive result... Most probably it would get you into trouble... This reminds me of a Michael Moore TV show I watched a few weeks ago on the local AXN cable channel: the TV show crew responded to a complaint by this guy who was turned-down on his application to join some metropolitan Police Force because he was... wait for it... too smart! Yes, the guy's IQ test was too high for a Policeman positon! According to that standartized, compulsory IQ test for everybody applying for a job working for that specific City Hall (I really can't remember which town it was, but I suspect it was in the State of Texas...), you can not score more than a certain number of right answers, if you want to be a Policeman... Questions of the said "IQ Test" were of the following type: Which of the following words does not belong to the same group as the others:
a) Banana
b) Potato
c) Pear
d) Cheeseburger
e) PoliticianSo, it turns out the guy's IQ test was suited for a job as an Insurance Salesman or a Lawyer, but not as a Policeman... Reassuring, huh? I definitely don't want to get into any sort of logical argument with a Policeman of that town! Anyway, the TV show had the guy repeat the IQ test, but this time in a very noisy room (banging metal pots and pans, shouting, and using electrical appliances), plus with constant interruptions, and in less than the full time allowed (well, you get the picture), and this time the guy managed to score "low enough" to join the Police Force. Of course, it was a "dummy" test, in the sense that it was not supervised by the City Hall recruiting services, but the City Hall said that they couldn't accept this second test anyway, because it was the kind of test that you could only take once... So, although there is a well-known proverb that says "Soldiers must be smart enough to understand orders, but not so smart as to question them", don't you think the US could be taking it too far?! |
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Post by Ricardus on May 5, 2005 20:34:59 GMT 1
Well, I don't wonder what a witless cretin is doing in the army or police. It stands to reason that the most disadvantaged section of the populace will always do the state's 'ditry work' for it. Often it is the only way out (short of professional football) and most of them don't possess the wherewithall to question the values which underpin these things.
I suppose I'm not for criticising the dolts who perpetrate these heinous acts (though they deserve censure of a sort) after all, these are the people who have been encouraged to view Iraqis (and other Muslims) as 'towel heads', 'terrorists', 'dirty' etc. Once the process of dehumanisation starts, people are capable of the most despicable behaviour (in certain respects it resembles sociopathic murderers - de-sensitising of the victim etc.)
The real culprits are those who have begun the dehumanising process themselves - the governments and their lackeys in the media and newspapers (the very same bunch who wail 'foul play' when poor uneducated white trash follows their lead) Anyway, my question to them is "so which is it?, are the US forces stacked with the noble, heroic figures fighting for democracy which you'd have us believe or, are they full of uneducated, gullible workers with a dubious set of values inculcated and encouraged by YOU (Mr. Bush)?
Since they've suggested both versions I think its difficult to answer
Ricardus
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Post by Zecristo on May 5, 2005 23:27:56 GMT 1
Here we go again...
So, people are not responsible because they are encouraged to view this or that on a given way.
I just cannot believe that...
And here we go again...
Politicians and governments do not make decisions!
They are told what to decide by the ones that really have the power.
That is especially true of the so called "democracies", where politicians only exist so that the man on the street can convince himself that he can influence who's in charge by voting.
That's a very handy illusion that serves the old purpose of self de-responsibilization inherent to most of the human species.
Just an example about "democracies":
Some months ago I heard in the news that some industrialists of this here little country where I stay vented after one of their meetings that the government was not defining an economic policy.
I said to myself: "These guys are not gonna long last!"
I only had to wait less than a [glow=red,2,300]DAY[/glow].
Mr. President of the country ousted the government and announced elections on the very next day the industrialists cried out they were not liking something.
And the existence of countries is another illusion.
There are no countries for the money people.
All the planet is theirs for the taking, so why worry about countries.
"Let the small fry kill each other because of countries and honor and god. We don't need any of that. We've got the money, we've got the power..."
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Post by flying on May 6, 2005 14:04:00 GMT 1
I again advise reading of Report from Iron Mountain.
2 subjects of that book that pop to the surface of my mind regarding this here Forum Topic are:
a) the Police Force as an Armed Force, to be used against the internal enemy; and
b) the Armed Forces as an instrument of Social Security, to provide jobs for the less gifted and/or to keep the anti-socials under control.
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Post by Ricardus on May 7, 2005 16:42:48 GMT 1
Well, I suppose the notion of 'responsibility' is complicated and is closely related to 'agency' and the applicability of free will and suchlike. I'm not for letting anyone off the hook as it were.
I think that the 'reason' (notice I avoid the notion of responsibility since that necessitates agency) that these things happen is because we live under a rotten system which cannot do other than perpetrate them. I am not keen on individuals beeing blamed for these things as if that is the 'last word'. Ultimately our system of commodity production throws up these things (as it does so in the interests of the rich and powerful) If anything is to blame, it is. You wil not hear that in any mainstream discussions of these things. What you will hear is how some uneducated 'white trash' was to blame and that what they were doing was 'totally out of character with the conduct of such things'
Likely story
Ricardus
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Post by ironman on May 8, 2005 0:13:15 GMT 1
Reassuring, huh? I definitely don't want to get into any sort of logical argument with a Policeman of that town! ! logical argument ?? when do u want to hold that, when he stops you for speeding wearing hes mirror sunglasses with drawn pump action shotgun shouting: get out of the car BOY!!, put your hands on the hood!!..... hahahahaha  Oooh i heard today on the news that one femal general has been put back in rank to colonel because she was responsible for the abu gray prison...  |
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Post by flying on May 8, 2005 14:08:28 GMT 1
[...] Oooh i heard today on the news that one femal general has been put back in rank to colonel because she was responsible for the abu gray prison... Well, that figures... " It was the woman's fault! I told you not to let women in the military! Now will you start listening to me?!" |
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Post by ironman on May 27, 2005 14:27:38 GMT 1
the USA military is a pre set up plan to get the poor people into the army , because it is the only way out of poverty ( i suggest u all watch Fahrenheit 9-11) then when all these poor people fighting a make shift enemy the big bosses are earning millions by selling arms...
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