|
|
Post by ironman on Nov 6, 2005 3:18:22 GMT 1
When asked: "Would you kill for your fatherland?" more than 99% of the men will reply "Yes, if they are shooting at me i will shoot back". But shortly after WW2, a general named Marshal asked more than 20.000 veteran frontline American soldiers about killing and shooting, and the results sent a shockwave through the American staff... Of all the men asked, only 60% fired their gun and only 22% admitted they fired at the area the enemy was shooting from, but from that same 22% only 2% actually shot with the intention of killing the enemy... And these were frontline D-Day combat troops, who stormed on the beaches in France... When confronted with a human being in their rifle sight, 98% feel sorry for the poor beggar and shot -- but not to kill.... I can imagine the general staff being shocked by these statistics, but as soon as these figures came out, the Air Force and other branches did a similar research and in the case of the Air Force, from all air-to-air kills made by Air Force pilots, all the kills were made by 3% of all the Air Force pilots... This meant there was only a very very small group of men doing the real dirty work of killing the enemy, while the rest of the combat soldiers just felt sorry for the enemy who was in their sights... In the end days of WW2, some of the combat soldiers were up to 90 days -- 24 hours a day -- in combat. The military doctors advised the general staff to rotate those soldiers on a 30-day base rotation, otherwise 98% of them would go to a psychiatric hospital for mental illness... The reply was: "What about the other 2%?!" The doctors sayed: "Don't worry they are already psychopaths who enjoy killing"  But this deep-rooted will not to kill another human being goes back way further, in the Napoleon wars the Prussian army did a field test, they made a target range and had their best regiment shoot at it, there was an up to 80% hit rate; hen this same regiment went into combat this would mean they could kill up to 500 enemies in a single round of firing, but when the regiment did go into combat, they only shot 2 people per round... This is because when you get into combat, the fear of dying and the adrenaline in your body shuts down the modern part of the brain, then the old part of the brain takes over and it causes fear, but this older part of the brain is the brain we used as apes, so to ensure the survival of us as a whole species, it is reluctant to kill a other human... Darn interesting, isnt it  |
|
|
|
Post by SilentVoice on Nov 6, 2005 13:36:03 GMT 1
Yea I knew this but as it comes out Im a psycho  |
|
|
|
Post by cheesecake on Nov 6, 2005 14:53:16 GMT 1
It's very interesting!!..always hear stories from the war about a german and an allies meeting and saving each other from death, but that's diffrent though!...
But like everything else, all movements are phycological, and there is not much we can do about not wanting to kill an enemy, unless you do extensive mental training, and get yourself into the correct frame of mind.
|
|
|
|
Post by JNK on Nov 6, 2005 17:09:53 GMT 1
Actually I wouldn't like shoot, I would like to be commander..... If someone shoots me (veeeery weird) I just would run like maniac and shout Poliisi, Police, Politie....  |
|
|
|
Post by flying on Nov 6, 2005 17:34:33 GMT 1
Yes, it is very interesting, Iron, and furthermore I think those statistics (that only 2% of people -- psychos or not! -- really make an effort to do a good job) reflect the reality of other areas of human life aswell...
As for the psychological trauma that you mention for "24/7" combat troops, nowadays that's called Post-Traumatic Stress (PTS); in WWI they called it “shell-shock” (because it usually afflicted the victims of artillery attacks), but the result is the same: people recurringly re-live in their heads a traumatic moment, spontaneously triggered by diverse stimulations of their senses in everyday life, and that often prevents them from living a "normal" life.
That happens because emotion (particularly fear, for self-preservation resons, I guess) helps to imprint memories, and everytime we remember something we strenghten the memory, so these very unfortunate people end up caught in a vicious cycle, where they are totally helpless to shake the memories that haunt them, sometimes for decades.
The only solution for PTS is distance (from the traumatic event): distance in time and distance in space. Of course, sedatives help too...
Another interesting thing, which to some extent could apparently clash with the statistics you show, is that shell-shock, Post-Traumatic Shock, or whatever you want to call it, only afflicts those people who are sensitive and intelligent enough to place themselves in the shoes of their enemies.
Those people are misfits in the frontline ranks of any Army, where what you need are the drunken halfwits that make up 90% of all armies in the world.
In a related matter, all this helps to explain the obvious need for elite combat units, whose rough training focus on something as basic (but as vital) as self-confidence, and besides firsthand familiarity with live fire and blood&guts in situations which are not really dangerous (and therefore personally not frightening) helps their mind not to shutdown (and, furthermore, to switch to "auto-pilot") when they finally experience the horrors of "real" war.
Also interestingly, what most elite combat troops say is that, in the end, they don't fight for "king and country", but for the guy next to them. Knowing you are not alone makes all the difference when you snap on your bayonet to your rifle...
But what I find really interesting is that what you say reflects my personal recruitment criteria, where I give a much greater importance to a given player's "attitude" (mental resolve), as opposed to his "kill ratio" (physical condition).
In war, it all boils down to esprit de corps, which is why, with the right attitude, an Army may lose any given battle, but will eventually win the war.
|
|
|
|
Post by ironman on Nov 6, 2005 18:35:40 GMT 1
yes a other thing that is very intressting, when the battle of waterloo was fought all armies had brite red.gold,grey uniforms, becos war was a show off, it wasnt ment to kill as many people as possible it was more of a show off, look at us here in out bright uniforms with are tall hats we look better so be gone or we kill you..
that is the same reason why so many armies introduced muskets instead of bows, a musket makes a lot of noise and smoke to scare the enemy away, but it wasnt effective, a good musket shooter could shoot 4 round a minute with poor accuracy but a good bows men can shoot up to 20 arrows further and with more accuracy then a musket can, so why did they all choose for the musket, because it looked more impressive..
there are even stories about the american civil war, that some people kept reloading there musket, there is even one noted example of a guy who loaded hes musket 32 times..
so this guy was standing in the front line relaoding hes gun 23 times, there were 23 bullets in hes barrle and 23 gun powder pouches..
this guy was no coward he was standing in the front line, and still he didnt shoot one time at the enemy. he just kept reloading hes gun so that hes fellow soldiers wouldt notice him not shooting..
when the battle of ghettysburg was over and they collected all the guns, more then half were never shot...
|
|
|
|
Post by germanwunderkind on Nov 6, 2005 20:11:20 GMT 1
many soldiers in WWII were under drugs.
this drugs makes that u can run faster, longer ,they make u (feel) stronger and u dont have pain.
so if u shot him in his shoulder he wouldnt feel anything he would keep on shooting/running.
And they did all what u wanted.
so if u had said :"run in this mine field. that makes u happy."
they had run witha big smile in his face.
under these drugs people killed and they didnt thought about what they did.
SICK !!!
|
|
|
|
Post by cheesecake on Nov 6, 2005 21:21:28 GMT 1
many soldiers in WWII were under drugs. this drugs makes that u can run faster, longer ,they make u (feel) stronger and u dont have pain. so if u shot him in his shoulder he wouldnt feel anything he would keep on shooting/running. And they did all what u wanted. so if u had said :"run in this mine field. that makes u happy." they had run witha big smile in his face. under these drugs people killed and they didnt thought about what they did. SICK !!! And for phycological reasons they were on the drugs... |
|
|
|
Post by ironman on Nov 6, 2005 21:29:36 GMT 1
most people think that acid or lsd is a hippy drugs, but as a matter of fact it was invented by the american army just after ww2 to make soldiers careless, they never used it on a great scale becos as a other side effect of not carring what happens, is that they didnt care if there buddies died, or who got shot where..
also xtc a popilair party drug now was invented by sientist for the american army to keep there pilots up for long distance bombing of vietnam...
als they tested a few other drugs, for example the american sientist were busy making a drug for the enemy so they would just stand there and not shoot but be stoned as a mofo!. they only problem was that they didnt have a good way of delivering this drug to the enemy soldiers, so they started experiments with making there own soldiers careless...
then allong came this brolliant proffesor called skinner, B.F skinner, he had this brilliant theorie about conditioning animals and people, with the "do the trick and reward" training..
He made mice do stuff and then he rewarded him, in the end after doing that 10000 times u dont have to reward the mice anymore for the same trick becos it has become part of hes function...
now u can do the same with soldiers, a soldier who thinks will not shoot or will shoot les fast..
so what do u do to counter this, you make realistic training smilations, like the USMC killing houses, where soldier shoot at each other with paint bullets (not paint ball bullets) so there is a sense of realizm, it hurts like freaking hell to get shot by one of those "paint bullets"and at short range u can kill peopel with it...
so the first time all the soldier who do thsi training are afraid, and heart beats are over 200 bpm but after 4 or 5 training sessions like that soldiers heart rate go back to 160 -180 bpm becos the are getting used to it (conditioned)...
so for these soldiers it is more easy to shoot real bullets at real people..
|
|
|
|
Post by cheesecake on Nov 6, 2005 23:00:33 GMT 1
most people that acid or lsd is a hippy drugs, but as a matter of fact it was invented by the american army just after ww2 to make soldiers careless, they never used it on a great scale becos as a other side effect of not carring what happens, is that they didnt care if there buddies died, or who got shot where.. also xtc a popilair party drug now was invented by sientist for the american army to keep there pilots up for long distance bombing of vietnam... als they tested a few other drugs, for example the american sientist were busy making a drug for the enemy so they would just stand there and not shoot but be stoned as a mofo!. they only problem was that they didnt have a good way of delivering this drug to the enemy soldiers, so they started experiments with making there own soldiers careless... then allong came this brolliant proffesor called skinner, B.F skinner, he had this brilliant theorie about conditioning animals and people, with the "do the trick and reward" training.. He made mice do stuff and then he rewarded him, in the end after doing that 10000 times u dont have to reward the mice anymore for the same trick becos it has become part of hes function... now u can do the same with soldiers, a soldier who thinks will not shoot or will shoot les fast.. so what do u do to counter this, you make realistic training smilations, like the USMC killing houses, where soldier shoot at each other with paint bullets (not paint ball bullets) so there is a sense of realizm, it hurts like freaking hell to get shot by one of those "paint bullets"and at short range u can kill peopel with it... so the first time all the soldier who do thsi training are afraid, and heart beats are over 200 bpm but after 4 or 5 training sessions like that soldiers heart rate go back to 160 -180 bpm becos the are getting used to it (conditioned)... so for these soldiers it is more easy to shoot real bullets at real people.. That's very interesting, but it's worrying that they drug armies!! Paintballing is so much fun, and yes it does hurt!!...But it would make fantastic training for armies, hence why they use it |
|
|
|
Post by ironman on Nov 7, 2005 18:07:38 GMT 1
most people that acid or lsd is a hippy drugs, but as a matter of fact it was invented by the american army just after ww2 to make soldiers careless, they never used it on a great scale becos as a other side effect of not carring what happens, is that they didnt care if there buddies died, or who got shot where.. also xtc a popilair party drug now was invented by sientist for the american army to keep there pilots up for long distance bombing of vietnam... als they tested a few other drugs, for example the american sientist were busy making a drug for the enemy so they would just stand there and not shoot but be stoned as a mofo!. they only problem was that they didnt have a good way of delivering this drug to the enemy soldiers, so they started experiments with making there own soldiers careless... then allong came this brolliant proffesor called skinner, B.F skinner, he had this brilliant theorie about conditioning animals and people, with the "do the trick and reward" training.. He made mice do stuff and then he rewarded him, in the end after doing that 10000 times u dont have to reward the mice anymore for the same trick becos it has become part of hes function... now u can do the same with soldiers, a soldier who thinks will not shoot or will shoot les fast.. so what do u do to counter this, you make realistic training smilations, like the USMC killing houses, where soldier shoot at each other with paint bullets (not paint ball bullets) so there is a sense of realizm, it hurts like freaking hell to get shot by one of those "paint bullets"and at short range u can kill peopel with it... so the first time all the soldier who do thsi training are afraid, and heart beats are over 200 bpm but after 4 or 5 training sessions like that soldiers heart rate go back to 160 -180 bpm becos the are getting used to it (conditioned)... so for these soldiers it is more easy to shoot real bullets at real people.. That's very interesting, but it's worrying that they drug armies!! Paintballing is so much fun, and yes it does hurt!!...But it would make fantastic training for armies, hence why they use it no no no DO NOT make the misstake in saying they are paintballing, they are using something i believe is called vemenition a paintball pallet cant kill ya, vemenition can at short range they arent using paintball guns they are using there real guns with real bullets only the metal bullet head has been replaced by a head filled with paint...but there is still gun powder in the bullet not air preasure... |
|
|
|
Post by cheesecake on Nov 7, 2005 18:21:57 GMT 1
That's very interesting, but it's worrying that they drug armies!! Paintballing is so much fun, and yes it does hurt!!...But it would make fantastic training for armies, hence why they use it no no no DO NOT make the misstake in saying they are paintballing, they are using something i believe is called vemenition a paintball pallet cant kill ya, vemenition can at short range they arent using paintball guns they are using there real guns with real bullets only the metal bullet head has been replaced by a head filled with paint...but there is still gun powder in the bullet not air preasure...  sorry..hehehe ahh cool, still sounds nasty!!...gonna hurt like crap!! Will the metal shell still leave the gun at the same speed? |
|
|
|
Post by ironman on Nov 7, 2005 19:02:44 GMT 1
no no no DO NOT make the misstake in saying they are paintballing, they are using something i believe is called vemenition a paintball pallet cant kill ya, vemenition can at short range they arent using paintball guns they are using there real guns with real bullets only the metal bullet head has been replaced by a head filled with paint...but there is still gun powder in the bullet not air preasure... sorry..hehehe ahh cool, still sounds nasty!!...gonna hurt like crap!! Will the metal shell still leave the gun at the same speed? yes they shoot like normal guns, so the cardridges also fly out... |
|
|
|
Post by cheesecake on Nov 7, 2005 19:04:31 GMT 1
sorry..hehehe ahh cool, still sounds nasty!!...gonna hurt like crap!! Will the metal shell still leave the gun at the same speed? yes they shoot like normal guns, so the cardridges also fly out... Ahh omg!!..so basically they're shooting each other!!...oh my days!!..."training tonight, will consist of shooting your best mate in the head"....thats shocking!!... ...effective though!! |
|
|
|
Post by ironman on Nov 8, 2005 8:09:19 GMT 1
yes they shoot like normal guns, so the cardridges also fly out... Ahh omg!!..so basically they're shooting each other!!...oh my days!!..."training tonight, will consist of shooting your best mate in the head"....thats shocking!!... ...effective though!! ermm that is the whole intention of doing that exercise, to get used at shooting people.. and this training has the great benefit of scaring the soldiers who take it cause they know they can be hurt for real, this is what makes this training so god, the first time they do this there heart rate goes off the scale, but by the 4th or 5th time they do it there heart rate has lowered considerably, so infact they are getting used in being shot and shooting at humans.. it is called conditioning.. its like midevil jousting tournaments, it is the real deal but the intention isnt to kill someone it is the intention of getting used to killing someone... all soldiers who went or are about to go to irauq have or will be trained like this... |
|
|
|
Post by flying on Nov 8, 2005 16:40:58 GMT 1
I had no idea US soldiers were going through that sort of "rubber bullet" training, Iron.
Drugs and soldiers go hand-in-hand; I think the WW2 drugs that GWK mentions in his post are amphetamines, in their several variants.
And as for the Military using their soldiers as guinea-pigs, it's a long tradition...
It saddens me that soldiers are treated like cattle, but let's face it: to the "masters" of Mankind, every single one of us is exactly that -- cattle
And once you become a soldier, you are already a "spent bullet", the only question being, how soon will you have to replaced?
|
|
|
|
Post by ironman on Nov 9, 2005 3:25:28 GMT 1
I had no idea US soldiers were going through that sort of "rubber bullet" training, Iron. Drugs and soldiers go hand-in-hand; I think the WW2 drugs that GWK mentions in his post are amphetamines, in their several variants. And as for the Military using their soldiers as guinea-pigs, it's a long tradition... It saddens me that soldiers are treated like cattle, but let's face it: to the "masters" of Mankind, every single one of us is exactly that -- cattle And once you become a soldier, you are already a "spent bullet", the only question being, how soon will you have to replaced? yep and i found out how the bullets they use are called, they are called simunitions.. Simunition is a high velocity mini-paintball bullets (notice the word High volocity <<< )  Below picture of soldier loading simunition  Picture below soldier was hit by simunition  needless to say he had to go to the hospital... |
|
